tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post7412563348614088542..comments2024-03-27T22:32:02.739+01:00Comments on Beneath the Stains of Time: The Case of the Monday Murders (1936) by Christopher BushTomCathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-52211715546495584372018-02-26T06:59:45.982+01:002018-02-26T06:59:45.982+01:00I think Tudor Queen is quite good and it has a ver...<em>I think Tudor Queen is quite good and it has a very neat alibi problem, so I have to part company on Nick with that one. But then the Puzzle Doctor didn't like it either. Moira Redmond had a higher opinion, however.</em><br /><br />I liked Tudor Queen as well. But then I usually enjoy mysteries with a theatrical background. Which might be because I like the idea of theatrical people killing each other!dfordoomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02306293859869179118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-62448536361213247832018-02-25T20:40:51.662+01:002018-02-25T20:40:51.662+01:00Leaning Man has a nice plot, but I’m afraid you’ll...Leaning Man has a nice plot, but I’m afraid you’ll say it’s too easy to discern. It introduces romance into Travers life and it alludes to the infamous Mr. A case, which I discussed in the introduction.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-65835028027420005622018-02-25T20:38:45.412+01:002018-02-25T20:38:45.412+01:00I think the Rhode books often are all about howdun...I think the Rhode books often are all about howdunit. There’s a reason Have His Carcase thanked Rhode for his help. It wasn’t just the code!The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-18129728600845216682018-02-25T19:47:25.591+01:002018-02-25T19:47:25.591+01:00Don't forget Sayers' Unnatural Death and t...Don't forget Sayers' <i>Unnatural Death</i> and there are strong how-was-it-done stories in <i>Case Closed</i>/<i>Detective Conan</i>, which include the midair-walk stroll caper (vol. 44) and a devious teleportation trick (vol. 61) with KID as the antagonist. You also have some regular (murder) cases in that series with a strong how-dun-it pull, but, besides <i>Case Closed</i>, I could only think of one other example. <br /><br />John Russell Fearn's <i>Except for One Thing</i> is an inverted detective story challenging the reader to figure out how the murderer disposed of the body. A body that literally vanished from the face of the earth. You probably won't rank it anywhere near Bush's <i>Cut Throat</i>, or Sayers, but I thought it was a good story with a devilish clever answer as to what happened to the body. TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-35348893495887186972018-02-25T08:53:40.465+01:002018-02-25T08:53:40.465+01:00What is there, really, that has a *how*dunnit pull...What is there, really, that has a *how*dunnit pull? This, and some of Sayers' - STRONG POISON and HAVE HIS CARCASE.Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-978561156673221092018-02-25T08:45:52.501+01:002018-02-25T08:45:52.501+01:00Yes, Christie was one of the genre's most gift...Yes, Christie was one of the genre's most gifted satirists! Critics who should know better (P.D. James, for one) sometimes dismiss her as uninventive, but many of her books are brilliant riffs on the genre's conventions. She knew how the thriller and the detective story *worked*, and how to turn them upside down. There's ROGER ACKROYD, HERCULE POIROT'S CHRISTMAS, and BODY IN THE LIBRARY, of course, but a lot of the early Poirot short stories are spoofs of Sherlock Holmes; and THE SEVEN DIALS MYSTERY is a brilliant parody of the '20s thriller. Because the writers she parodied are obscure, some critics think she codifies - rather than subverts.<br /><br />I haven't read Leaning Man. (I read the short story years ago, but can't remember it!) Press opinion was mixed: the Times Literary Supplement called it "not exactly a vintage Travers, [but] good enough"; the New York Times thought it was "good"; and the Saturday Review only "standard brand". Will Cuppy liked it, though: "a smooth-as-silk affair, with a touch of romance for a chaser".<br /><br />Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-87875225404296978922018-02-24T09:13:48.564+01:002018-02-24T09:13:48.564+01:00The alibi trick in Cut Throat is as ingenious as a...The alibi trick in <i>Cut Throat</i> is as ingenious as any of Carr's best locked room mysteries. As Nick said, you eventually know who the murderer is, but this person has one of those frustrating, cast-iron alibis. I really wish more detective stories had been written in this vein. TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-8798528509047270442018-02-24T09:08:27.190+01:002018-02-24T09:08:27.190+01:00"I have exacting standards for plots - except..."<i>I have exacting standards for plots - except when it comes to Gladys Mitchell!</i>"<br /><br />And Rex Stout! And Asimov's Black Widower stories! TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-42150265112969131892018-02-24T09:06:57.335+01:002018-02-24T09:06:57.335+01:00"I don't think that sort of thing is acci..."<i>I don't think that sort of thing is accidental, not coming from Christie.</i>" <br /><br />I agree. Christie was signaling in those two books that she was riffing on the work of someone else, which is something she apparently loved to do from time to time. Just look at <i>Partners in Crime</i> and <i>The Big Four</i>. I just feel bad for the writers she was riffing, because her work usually turned out to be the superior one. <i>The ABC Murders</i> not only blows <i>The Case of the Monday Murders</i> out of the water, but also buries <i>The Silk Stocking Murders</i> six feet under. <br /><br />"<i>And then Nick says it's like a John Rhode as I recall, but that wouldn't be a bad thing in my book!</i>"<br /><br />Sounds like a recommendation to me! <br /><br />"<i>I have a notion, however, that Green Felt Hat may prove the most popular from this set. It's one John Norris liked, a village mystery, with lots of suspects. I think I quoted John in the intro.</i>"<br /><br />It will have a hard time beating <i>The Case of the Chinese Gong</i> and <i>The Case of the Missing Minutes</i>, but I'll certainly be taking a look at <i>The Case of the Green Felt Hat</i>. By the way, why does nobody ever mention <i>The Case of the Leaning Man</i>. Is that one considered to be a lesser Bush? TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-54467025924092283942018-02-24T06:06:39.966+01:002018-02-24T06:06:39.966+01:00Didn't Leo Bruce steal most of his plots? ;)
...Didn't Leo Bruce steal most of his plots? ;)<br /><br />I have exacting standards for plots - except when it comes to Gladys Mitchell! Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-60364878692681914912018-02-24T04:49:28.120+01:002018-02-24T04:49:28.120+01:00Yes, I loved this one! X's guilt is clear by ...Yes, I loved this one! X's guilt is clear by halfway through - but he simply couldn't have done it. It's deliciously, tantalizing frustrating.Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-56697882361626815652018-02-24T04:47:04.390+01:002018-02-24T04:47:04.390+01:00I haven't read Hat yet - although hopefully it...I haven't read Hat yet - although hopefully it'll be a topper.<br /><br />Favorites? First set: Dead Man Twice, Cut Throat, April Fools (all excellent)<br />Second set: Missing MinutesNick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-48039680646081820052018-02-24T04:44:37.028+01:002018-02-24T04:44:37.028+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-61116491008156488462018-02-23T20:14:25.402+01:002018-02-23T20:14:25.402+01:00Cut Throat was one of those miracle mysteries wher...Cut Throat was one of those miracle mysteries where everything clicked immediately for me. I loved the whole alibi scheme and the press lords background added piquancy and poignancy. That was the Bush I included in my favorites list some years ago, but there are some more titles I would include today.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-47299912515933609282018-02-23T20:10:26.329+01:002018-02-23T20:10:26.329+01:00Yes, Christie did some clever things that way. Nic...Yes, Christie did some clever things that way. Nick pointed out in an email with me once that in Sad Cypress, which I had called Christie's Strong Poison, that a key character is named Peter Lord--Lord Peter, right? I don't think that sort of thing is accidental, not coming from Christie.<br /><br />I hate to get out on a limb on Tudor Queen, but I liked it much better the second time I read it. I see it as more of a Bush procedural. I think actually having read a bunch of Bush books helped me appreciate it. And then Nick says it's like a John Rhode as I recall, but that wouldn't be a bad thing in my book!<br /><br />I like Dead Shepherd too, which is another one Nick didn't go for, but I got into its dour realism (thinking about schoolmastering seemed to bring out the misanthrope in Bush), which may not appeal to all GA fans! It's another one I liked much better on the second read. <br /><br />I actually read 100% Alibis for the first time last year, when my father was in hospital. It was a nice diversion, also somewhat meta.<br /><br />I have a notion, however, that Green Felt Hat may prove the most popular from this set. It's one John Norris liked, a village mystery, with lots of suspects. I think I quoted John in the intro.<br /><br />I would say my favorites from this set are Alibis, Shepherd, Minutes, Queen, Hat. I'm guessing Nick's would be Body, Gong, Minutes, Hat and...?<br /><br />First set it would be Dancing Death, Cut Throat, Fools, Faces and TPMC.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-50459866746410548732018-02-23T19:48:11.367+01:002018-02-23T19:48:11.367+01:00"I don't see, though, why one would consi..."<i>I don't see, though, why one would consider The ABC Murders a serial killer novel and not Monday Murders?</i>"<br /><br />I know this will be hard to explain, without walking straight into spoiler territory, but a series of murders, all done by the same hand, were actually being investigated in <i>The ABC Murders</i>. Just like in Ellery Queen's <i>Cat of Many Tails</i> and Philip MacDonald's <i>Murder Gone Mad</i>. The serial killer in <i>The Case of the Monday Murders</i> merely serves as background dressing for the two main murders. So I can really place this one in the same category as the others<br /><br />But you know what's interesting? <i>ABC</i> and <i>Monday Murders</i> both appear to have a connection with Anthony Berkeley. <br /><br />Christie probably got the idea for her novel from Berkeley's <i>The Silk Stocking Murders</i>, which could have been acknowledged in the character of the traveling salesman, Alexander Bonaparte Cust, who sells silk stockings and shares Berkeley's full initials – which was Anthony Berkeley Cox (ABC). You pointed out yourself that Berkeley could have been Bush's model for Ferdinand Pole. <br /><br />"<i>But I will add you have the most exacting standards on plot, as does Nick, which is good. When a book gets a good review from you, it's really cleared a high hurdle.</i>"<br /><br />Nah. I'm just spoiled. I only want detective stories with plots woven from the finest, silkiest plot-threads. <br /><br />"<i>I think Tudor Queen is quite good and it has a very neat alibi problem, so I have to part company on Nick with that one. But then the Puzzle Doctor didn't like it either. Moira Redmond had a higher opinion, however.</i>"<br /><br />Don't make <i>Tudor Queen</i> my next Bush! I'll never get around to <i>Dead Man Twice</i> or <i>The Case of the 100% Alibis</i>, which I foolishly ditched for this one. TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-77696810306092280572018-02-23T19:08:44.729+01:002018-02-23T19:08:44.729+01:00ABC Murders is a very high bar! You're talking...ABC Murders is a very high bar! You're talking one of the greatest mysteries in the history of the genre in ABC. It was grand enough for Leo Bruce to steal for one of his books.<br /><br />I don't see, though, why one would consider The ABC Murders a serial killer novel and not Monday Murders? I was so struck by the resemblance in that respect that I wondered in the intro whether they might both have been conceived at the same Detection Club dinner.<br /><br />The reason I don't consider Perfect Murder Case a serial killer novel is that it isn't really presented as such in the book, despite the surface similarity to Jack the Ripper with the letter. The killer states he is going to commit a murder and does so, and it's made clear he has a personal agenda going on in this one particular case. It's not a case of someone who might be murdering people serially. In ABC and Monday, the deaths are presented to the reader as work of a serial killer (true or not). <br /><br />This actually is getting into spoiler territory, since most people won't know the plot of Monday Murders as they will ABC, so I will stop. But I will add you have the most exacting standards on plot, as does Nick, which is good. When a book gets a good review from you, it's really cleared a high hurdle. On the other hand it's possible some readers may find the plot more puzzling. For example, there's the question of motivation. <br /><br />What I liked best about it I highlighted in the introduction: it did seem like Bush was engaging with the Detection Club in rather a puckish way.<br /><br />I think Tudor Queen is quite good and it has a very neat alibi problem, so I have to part company on Nick with that one. But then the Puzzle Doctor didn't like it either. Moira Redmond had a higher opinion, however.The Passing Tramphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09830680639601570152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-18320817869444383132018-02-23T13:13:23.285+01:002018-02-23T13:13:23.285+01:00Yes, The ABC Murders is clearly the superior of th...Yes, <i>The ABC Murders</i> is clearly the superior of the two, but then again, I don't really consider <i>The Case of the Monday Murders</i> to be a serial killer story. So the comparison is not entirely a fair one. Still a disappointing read. <br /><br />Thanks for letting me know which one to avoid when they get republished. At least, until I ran out of the good ones! TomCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03415176301265218101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5516189026477178777.post-23485594473643136262018-02-23T11:57:39.426+01:002018-02-23T11:57:39.426+01:00Yeah, this one. It's disappointing, as you sa...Yeah, this one. It's disappointing, as you say; X is obviously guilty, and there's simply not enough going on in the story (either in terms of plot complexity or characterization). <br />Compare it to Agatha Christie's ABC MURDERS of the same year, which uses the same premise - and blows this out of the water. It's bigger in scope (four towns plus London, across different social classes); better characterized; more complex; and moves faster. But that's the deft, dazzling Dame of Death.<br /><br />This was one of the first three or four Bushes I read - and we got off to a bad start. HEAVENLY TWIN (very late, bad); MONDAY MURDERS (Golden Age, and average); SECOND CHANCE (post-WWII, bad); and TUDOR QUEEN (Golden Age, OK). Bush can be very uneven - he's written some hyperingenious bafflers and some dreary slogs with depressingly uninventive plots. Go figure!Nick Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05668031989499870182noreply@blogger.com